In this captivating episode, we dive into the world of science with Dr. Eliza Dunn, an emergency medicine physician, and medical toxicologist. Join us as we uncover the fascinating contributions of Bayer to humanity, the role of agriculture in poverty alleviation, and the importance of science communication. Discover the stories behind COVID-19, the potential of AI in healthcare, and the future of scientific research. Get ready to be inspired and informed by Dr. Dunn's insights and expertise. Tune in now and join the movement toward a brighter, healthier future!
Bio
Dr. S. Eliza Dunn is an emergency medicine physician and medical toxicologist with a long-standing interest in global health. After completing her toxicology fellowship at NYU in 2006, Dr. Dunn returned to Washington University in St. Louis, starting an ACGME-accredited fellowship in Medical Toxicology. In the following decade, she became increasingly involved in global health and humanitarian relief projects. Dr. Dunn organized a relief mission to Haiti after the 2010 earthquake, initiated the scholar track in Global Health for the Washington University Division of Emergency Medicine, and serves as one of the Global Health Scholars for the Department of Internal Medicine. Recognizing the need for sustainable impact, Dr. Dunn joined Bayer as the Medical Affairs Lead, where she focuses on addressing malnutrition and insect-borne illness through innovative technology. With a diverse range of expertise, Dr. Dunn has lectured nationally and internationally on various topics in medical toxicology and emergency medicine.
Timestamps:
0:27 Guest intro
0:51 Sponsor message
1:31 Dr. Eliza's journey to crop science
4:42 Bayer's impactful contributions to humanity
5:25 The role of agriculture in lifting the United States out of poverty
6:15 Exploring the purpose and history of Land Grant University
9:00 Addressing the effects of bad policy on starvation
10:27 The medical side of Bayer: Healthcare support for rural communities
11:20 Deciphering good and bad policy: How do we know?
15:39 Science focus and industry engagement: Why it matters
17:21 Empowering women through processed foods and agriculture
18:40 Debunking common misconceptions about agriculture on social media
23:00 Lessons from COVID-19: What did we learn?
28:04 Preparing for the next potential epidemic
31:29 Sponsor message
32:26 Leveraging COVID vaccine technology in the fight against cancer
35:36 Enhancing science communication and promoting understanding
37:49 Bridging gaps with good science: The story behind hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin
43:39 The rise of AI, novel research areas, and the need for open-access publications
49:59 Final Plugs
Plugs
You can find Dr. Liza Dunn on Twitter: Liza Dunn (@DrLizaMD) / Twitter
Bayer website: Bayer – Global Home | Bayer Global
KG Food Company: KetoGeek | Official Site – KG Food Company
Shop Energy Pods(Our sponsors): Energy Pods – KG Food Company
Transcription
1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,280
Welcome to the Energize Explorer Enjoy Podcast where we bring you inspiring conversations
2
00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:13,840
about food, fitness and adventure fueled by the power of the energy pods.
3
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:26,640
Let's do this!
4
00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,720
Welcome to another episode of the Energize Explorer Enjoy Podcast.
5
00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:36,240
Today we dive into the world of global health with the incredible Dr. Eliza Dunn.
6
00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,920
As an emergency medicine physician and medical toxicologist, she's making a sustainable
7
00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,120
impact in healthcare.
8
00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,680
Get ready for an inspiring conversation that will broaden your horizons and motivate you
9
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,280
to make a difference.
10
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:56,600
Hey there listeners, this episode is sponsored by the ever-amazing KG Food
11
00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:58,360
Companies Energy Pods.
12
00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,280
Are you ready for a flavor adventure?
13
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:05,280
Get ready to taste white chocolate strawberry, breakfast mokkunwar, and the fan favorite
14
00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:06,680
chocolate nova.
15
00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:12,040
These pods are not only delicious, but also are packed with protein, healthy fats and minimal
16
00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,440
sugar to keep you going all day.
17
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,920
Plus, they come with a built-in spoon for your on-the-go snacking needs.
18
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:20,880
So, don't wait another minute.
19
00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:29,720
Head over to kgfoodco.com, kgfod, co.com, and orders a energy pod to fill your life.
20
00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,800
I'm Dr. Eliza Dunn.
21
00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,800
I'm an emergency medicine physician and a medical toxicologist.
22
00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,800
And I am the medical affairs lead for bare-prop science.
23
00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,800
Many people scratch their heads and say, "How did an emergency doctor get into agriculture?"
24
00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,480
The answer is I took the scenic group.
25
00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:55,400
I did some relief work when I was in college in Haiti.
26
00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:04,480
And I saw, I was in concert production when I was in college and was thinking of a career
27
00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,120
in rock and roll.
28
00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:11,080
And this trip, this little kid, Fritz, who was first kid I ever saw with malnutrition,
29
00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,320
changed my whole life projector.
30
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,520
And so, anyway, he was the first child that I saw with malnutrition and I thought, "Rum,
31
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,200
I want to do something different than cancer production."
32
00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:28,240
So I went and eventually went to medical school, did emergency medicine in order to be able
33
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,640
to do humanitarian work.
34
00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:33,920
And then, realized I was a jack of all trades and a master of none.
35
00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:41,880
So I went and furthered my education by doing a toxicology fellowship at NYU.
36
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:49,840
And then came back to St. Louis and started a medical toxicology fellowship at Washington
37
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,240
University in St. Louis.
38
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,200
And in 2010, there was the big earthquake of Haiti.
39
00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:01,760
And so I organized relief mission with several residents back to Haiti and found it in a
40
00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:08,800
state that was not so terribly different than I had left it 21 years prior.
41
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:14,680
And realized that with these relief missions and things like that, Haiti gets some of the
42
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,760
most incredible amount of aid and it doesn't seem to be doing much.
43
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:25,160
And I started thinking critically, how can we improve the situation there?
44
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,880
And realized that I was seeing once again lots of malnutrition and lots of insect-borne
45
00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:30,120
illness.
46
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:38,040
And so, with that in mind, I got an offer at a job at what was mine, Santo, and the day
47
00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,040
I got hired was it bare bought it.
48
00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:46,880
The importance of bare in Monsanto is that they really have their seed companies and as
49
00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,440
well as farm are with bare in consumer health.
50
00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:55,920
But they produce wonderful tools for modern agriculture that help feed the world.
51
00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:03,120
And I think that this is the GMOs are really, really critical for producing environmental
52
00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:10,880
footprints of agriculture and providing food security for people.
53
00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:18,200
And so I think that these are wonderful, very interesting science-based products.
54
00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:24,640
And so I spend my time doing outreach to talk to people about the safety and benefits of
55
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,960
modern agriculture and how pesticides are actually predicted for public health.
56
00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:30,440
And that's how I got there.
57
00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,320
I have a very interesting question here.
58
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:38,680
What are some of the most interesting, fun, or influential things that you think bare has
59
00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,400
contributed towards humanity as a whole?
60
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:43,600
Yeah, that's really interesting.
61
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,680
So our motto is, you know, health for all and hunger for none.
62
00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,920
We are really a one-health company.
63
00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,160
One of the projects that we're working on is something called the Safe Use Ambassadors
64
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,160
Program.
65
00:04:54,160 --> 00:05:00,120
In the Safe Use Ambassadors Program, bare has committed by 2030 to help 100 million small
66
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,000
holder farmers learn the best ways of growing crops.
67
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,440
So they aren't subsistence farmers anymore.
68
00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:12,800
They are able to have enough sustenance, nutrition for themselves and then be able to sell
69
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,200
whatever extra they make.
70
00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:20,360
So using the best, most advanced techniques that they can and make it affordable for them
71
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:21,760
to be able to do that.
72
00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,200
And that's really how the US kind of lifted itself out of poverty, right?
73
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:32,480
So if you think about it in 1900, the 45% of the population farmed in the US and you live
74
00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:39,120
to the right bull day, 45, by 2002% of the population farmed and were pushing 80.
75
00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:43,960
And that's because five public health advances are the 20th century that are unprecedented
76
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,360
in the history of mankind.
77
00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:50,240
Remember, we've got 10,000 years of experience with organic farming in 50 years of food security
78
00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,520
in the West because of these advances.
79
00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:59,920
So those advances are food security, water sanitation, vaccination, antibiotics and vector
80
00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:00,920
control.
81
00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,520
And then on top of that for women, there have been big advances in women's health, preventing
82
00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,120
postpartum hemorrhage and things like that, which incidentally comes from a crop story,
83
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:11,560
but we can get back to that later.
84
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:19,220
Anyway, so as part of the Safe Use Ambassadors Program were sort of modeling after what we
85
00:06:19,220 --> 00:06:24,100
called the land grant programs that were established in the states in the late 1800s.
86
00:06:24,100 --> 00:06:29,380
So as people moved west in the states, they settled along the way.
87
00:06:29,380 --> 00:06:33,420
And so you had very dispersed subsistence farmers.
88
00:06:33,420 --> 00:06:39,700
And so land grant universities were established in order to give professional help to these
89
00:06:39,700 --> 00:06:42,940
small-holder farmers in order to make them productive.
90
00:06:42,940 --> 00:06:47,700
And it's to be able to be the best practitioners of farming possible.
91
00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:54,020
And so American farmers got very, very efficient and started growing productive crops, their
92
00:06:54,020 --> 00:06:56,540
yields started increasing and things like that.
93
00:06:56,540 --> 00:07:04,660
This was such an important program that in 1905 there was a dress rehearsal for the Russian
94
00:07:04,660 --> 00:07:05,660
Revolution.
95
00:07:05,660 --> 00:07:11,500
Peter Stollapin, who is the prime minister of Russia at the time, wound up trying to understand
96
00:07:11,500 --> 00:07:14,900
the reasons for the discontent in the peasant class.
97
00:07:14,900 --> 00:07:17,620
And he really touched on something important.
98
00:07:17,620 --> 00:07:22,260
Recognize that they weren't holding their own land and what they grew.
99
00:07:22,260 --> 00:07:26,300
They couldn't keep themselves to feed their families and they couldn't profit from it.
100
00:07:26,300 --> 00:07:27,300
They had extra.
101
00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:33,460
So he looked to the land grant programs in the United States and set a similar program in
102
00:07:33,460 --> 00:07:38,620
Russia where he gave little grants to the peasant class.
103
00:07:38,620 --> 00:07:44,180
And by 1918 they were feeding 50% of the Russian population.
104
00:07:44,180 --> 00:07:45,700
Which is incredible.
105
00:07:45,700 --> 00:07:48,820
And that's the dawn of the Russian Revolution in 1918.
106
00:07:48,820 --> 00:07:58,260
They unfortunately were subsequently recolectiveized land and wound up causing them to starve.
107
00:07:58,260 --> 00:08:05,420
And they were thought of as wealthy landowners, even though this had been only implemented
108
00:08:05,420 --> 00:08:07,220
over a short period of time.
109
00:08:07,220 --> 00:08:13,220
And so they wound up calling them the "gulags" and the "gulags" wound up being sent to
110
00:08:13,220 --> 00:08:17,100
the "gulag" and starving during the holiday war in Ukraine.
111
00:08:17,100 --> 00:08:23,460
Because they had sort of lost all of the wonderful advances that they had gotten.
112
00:08:23,460 --> 00:08:30,340
So the point is that agriculture is really the foundation of civilization and good agricultural
113
00:08:30,340 --> 00:08:34,300
policy can help farmers be productive.
114
00:08:34,300 --> 00:08:41,060
And when they're productive, they can lift themselves out of substance farming and go to schools.
115
00:08:41,060 --> 00:08:47,220
And this is actually really kind of a human rights issue because women can be tied to the
116
00:08:47,220 --> 00:08:49,380
land and children tied to the land.
117
00:08:49,380 --> 00:08:54,500
Just feeding them, they're working hard to feed themselves, doesn't treat them up to be
118
00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:59,660
able to do other things like go to school or get a job or things like that.
119
00:08:59,660 --> 00:09:04,420
So food security is really the basis of civilization.
120
00:09:04,420 --> 00:09:07,620
And bad policy actually causes starvation.
121
00:09:07,620 --> 00:09:16,380
So we saw that in Ukraine in the late 20s and then we saw that again with the great leap forward
122
00:09:16,380 --> 00:09:22,900
in China in the 50s, 50 million people starve because of bad agricultural policy.
123
00:09:22,900 --> 00:09:28,580
And we just saw it happen in Sri Lanka this past year where bad agricultural policy had
124
00:09:28,580 --> 00:09:30,220
a knock on effect.
125
00:09:30,220 --> 00:09:34,100
And now countries really in significant and bad shape.
126
00:09:34,100 --> 00:09:40,140
But good agricultural policies wind up helping people go from, once again, 45% of the US population
127
00:09:40,140 --> 00:09:42,260
farmed in 1900.
128
00:09:42,260 --> 00:09:48,740
And now we're down to 2%, and they are incredibly efficient, productive farmers and their footprint
129
00:09:48,740 --> 00:09:53,740
that they did by a mental footprint that they have is significantly lower than it has
130
00:09:53,740 --> 00:10:01,420
been in the past because if you're all going to farm organically, you need much more land,
131
00:10:01,420 --> 00:10:08,620
much more water and much more input in order to produce the same kind of yields that a growing
132
00:10:08,620 --> 00:10:09,620
world needs.
133
00:10:09,620 --> 00:10:14,500
And so that's what the Safe Use Ambassador program is aiming to try to help small holder
134
00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:21,060
farmers achieve those gains in bad productivity so they can have some economic benefit for
135
00:10:21,060 --> 00:10:24,300
themselves, food security for the rest of the world.
136
00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:26,700
And that's the ag side of it.
137
00:10:26,700 --> 00:10:31,740
We also have a medical side of it where we're trying to train physicians and rural health
138
00:10:31,740 --> 00:10:40,100
care workers to help rural communities have best practices in health care.
139
00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:45,340
So how to manage heat stroke, how to manage heat traumatic injuries, how to manage snake
140
00:10:45,340 --> 00:10:48,180
bite, pesticide exposures and a variety of things.
141
00:10:48,180 --> 00:10:53,900
And so there's really a one health company and there's not many companies like that.
142
00:10:53,900 --> 00:10:58,460
And it's an incredible opportunity to work on programs like this.
143
00:10:58,460 --> 00:11:05,260
We talked about policies as a normal consumer or maybe if I'm a doctor or a nutritionist or
144
00:11:05,260 --> 00:11:09,420
anybody who's playing a very key important role in influencing people's lives, how would
145
00:11:09,420 --> 00:11:16,620
I know if a policy is good or bad, something that's progressive or regressive considering
146
00:11:16,620 --> 00:11:19,740
my limited understanding of what's going on around me.
147
00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:21,940
Yeah, and that's what that's what's really taught.
148
00:11:21,940 --> 00:11:27,300
Because there's a lot of people try to make policy that they think is good.
149
00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:32,180
So I would contend that there are a lot of physicians and a lot of medical organizations,
150
00:11:32,180 --> 00:11:35,580
you know, all the way up to the World Health Organization that are commenting and weighing
151
00:11:35,580 --> 00:11:37,380
in on agricultural policy.
152
00:11:37,380 --> 00:11:42,540
And the reason why they're doing that is because they have seen an epidemic of non-communicable
153
00:11:42,540 --> 00:11:43,540
seasons.
154
00:11:43,540 --> 00:11:49,780
So like heart disease, diabetes, cancer, hypertension, and they're trying to figure out how to address
155
00:11:49,780 --> 00:11:54,260
those non-communicable diseases because they have a huge impact on like expectancy and things
156
00:11:54,260 --> 00:11:55,260
like that.
157
00:11:55,260 --> 00:12:02,380
What they think they understand is that the way food is grown, the way food is processed,
158
00:12:02,380 --> 00:12:06,140
and the way food is consumed are all contributing to those things.
159
00:12:06,140 --> 00:12:13,420
And so they're making policy recommendations to international bodies about agriculture.
160
00:12:13,420 --> 00:12:18,020
Unfortunately, you have a much bigger group of physicians and health and public health officials
161
00:12:18,020 --> 00:12:19,020
and you do farmers.
162
00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:21,220
Remember, we said 2% of the population part.
163
00:12:21,220 --> 00:12:25,060
So the farming community, first of all, they're very busy growing their food, so they don't
164
00:12:25,060 --> 00:12:28,820
have a lot of time to go talk to policy makers, right?
165
00:12:28,820 --> 00:12:31,340
They also don't have a lot of a voice.
166
00:12:31,340 --> 00:12:36,860
And to be able to say why what they're doing is so important because such a small percentage
167
00:12:36,860 --> 00:12:42,540
of the population farms in such a small percentage of those growers are in advocacy circles.
168
00:12:42,540 --> 00:12:44,380
I kind of like to think of it like this.
169
00:12:44,380 --> 00:12:50,740
A bunch of farmers got together or ag policy makers got together and said, "We don't like
170
00:12:50,740 --> 00:12:54,220
anti-hypertensive medicines because they have side effects."
171
00:12:54,220 --> 00:12:57,420
And those side effects, you know, are troublesome for us.
172
00:12:57,420 --> 00:13:00,300
They make it busy, they make it poor.
173
00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:02,420
We have a whole bunch of things.
174
00:13:02,420 --> 00:13:07,980
So since we don't like them, we're going to go lobby international medical organizations
175
00:13:07,980 --> 00:13:12,300
to ban anti-hypertensive physicians would be like, "Whoa, whoa, you're going to have
176
00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:14,340
strokes and heart attack skin."
177
00:13:14,340 --> 00:13:15,780
That's not a good idea.
178
00:13:15,780 --> 00:13:19,980
And you can find all sorts of papers saying that their side effects of anti-hypertensive medicine,
179
00:13:19,980 --> 00:13:20,980
right?
180
00:13:20,980 --> 00:13:26,220
So this is a similar situation where people think they're doing the right thing, but they
181
00:13:26,220 --> 00:13:31,180
aren't getting necessarily the right information to make the best decisions.
182
00:13:31,180 --> 00:13:36,300
So that's why I think it's so important to have a good understanding of good agricultural
183
00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:45,140
practices before having a professional organization that is not related to making recommendations.
184
00:13:45,140 --> 00:13:48,100
Now why are we seeing this epidemic of these diseases?
185
00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:53,020
Well, the reason why we're seeing this epidemic is because these are diseases with aging,
186
00:13:53,020 --> 00:13:54,020
right?
187
00:13:54,020 --> 00:14:00,980
So because you're not dying from vaccine or antibiotic preventable illnesses or because
188
00:14:00,980 --> 00:14:05,460
you're starving because you don't have food security or because you have vector-borne
189
00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:13,020
illness like the plague or typhus or malaria or because you don't have water sanitation.
190
00:14:13,020 --> 00:14:16,220
You are living past the rightful age of five.
191
00:14:16,220 --> 00:14:19,780
Remember, like expectancy was 45 in 1900.
192
00:14:19,780 --> 00:14:22,580
It was actually 35 in 1800.
193
00:14:22,580 --> 00:14:27,700
So we're seeing diseases of aging and these non-communicable diseases need to be addressed,
194
00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:33,660
but not by reverting to the same practices that we had in 1900 and 1800 because we've
195
00:14:33,660 --> 00:14:36,660
forgotten what that existence was.
196
00:14:36,660 --> 00:14:39,380
So I guess the way to answer your question a little bit more directly, and I'm sorry this
197
00:14:39,380 --> 00:14:46,700
is a little wrong around about, is go to experts in the actual field that's being discussed.
198
00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:54,380
So it's really important to hear from experts in agriculture before you make your decision
199
00:14:54,380 --> 00:14:57,220
about how it's linked to a medical problem.
200
00:14:57,220 --> 00:15:00,100
Keep all sort of demonized food processing alive.
201
00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:06,740
Food processing, if you remember the story of the little red hen is the little red hen is
202
00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:14,020
asking for all sorts of help to get wheat harvest and then milled and then processed in order
203
00:15:14,020 --> 00:15:15,820
to turn into a loaf of bread.
204
00:15:15,820 --> 00:15:19,260
Nobody wants to help her with anything except for the eating part of it, right?
205
00:15:19,260 --> 00:15:21,940
And then she's like, well, I just did all of that.
206
00:15:21,940 --> 00:15:24,060
And that's what food processing is, right?
207
00:15:24,060 --> 00:15:29,340
Food processing is also another women's rates issue because it helps women get out of
208
00:15:29,340 --> 00:15:35,020
the kitchen and be able to go study and do work and things like that because they're not
209
00:15:35,020 --> 00:15:41,340
busy doing everything from harvest to milling to processing the food themselves.
210
00:15:41,340 --> 00:15:46,780
So you don't want ultra processed things all the time, but don't throw the baby out with
211
00:15:46,780 --> 00:15:47,780
the bath water.
212
00:15:47,780 --> 00:15:53,460
So it's really important to listen to experts in the field of agriculture in this case.
213
00:15:53,460 --> 00:15:57,820
It's also really important, I think, to actually talk to people from industry.
214
00:15:57,820 --> 00:16:04,900
We have a whole bunch of scientists who are brilliant scientists who invent incredible things
215
00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:07,380
that people find useful.
216
00:16:07,380 --> 00:16:10,060
People won't buy things that they don't find useful.
217
00:16:10,060 --> 00:16:18,140
And what they do is they also help academics get wonderful ideas off the shelf of a laboratory
218
00:16:18,140 --> 00:16:24,940
in a university and put that product through the regulatory requirements.
219
00:16:24,940 --> 00:16:30,980
So through all of the 10 years and billions of dollars that it takes to get a product
220
00:16:30,980 --> 00:16:34,700
off the shelf and out into the world to help people.
221
00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:40,080
So that holding industry at arms, legs, because people are concerned about industry, I understand
222
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,180
that industry has conflicts, academia has conflicts, everybody's got conflicts.
223
00:16:44,180 --> 00:16:54,340
But it's really important to try to understand the science around these topics before making
224
00:16:54,340 --> 00:16:55,340
decisions.
225
00:16:55,340 --> 00:17:01,740
And I would encourage people not to say, oh, I can't listen to this side because they're
226
00:17:01,740 --> 00:17:08,140
from industry, or I can't listen to this side because they get funding from this organization.
227
00:17:08,140 --> 00:17:18,220
I think it's really important to hear and have open discussions about the science before
228
00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:20,340
you're making a policy decision.
229
00:17:20,340 --> 00:17:26,900
And the whole thing about female empowerment is very important because of, I mean, I've lived
230
00:17:26,900 --> 00:17:33,660
that life where even my own mother, for example, she would be working a full-time job.
231
00:17:33,660 --> 00:17:35,820
She made more than my dad did.
232
00:17:35,820 --> 00:17:37,660
And she was a master's in physics.
233
00:17:37,660 --> 00:17:41,780
So we had Einstein and Newton jokes all day long.
234
00:17:41,780 --> 00:17:48,340
But the point was that she was very busy and she would still, despite her schedule, put
235
00:17:48,340 --> 00:17:50,740
food on the table three times a day.
236
00:17:50,740 --> 00:17:51,980
That was very taxing.
237
00:17:51,980 --> 00:17:55,340
And by the end of the day, she would have very little time to spend with her kids.
238
00:17:55,340 --> 00:18:00,220
And that was one of her regrets later in life that she wanted to spend more time with
239
00:18:00,220 --> 00:18:01,940
her kids and family.
240
00:18:01,940 --> 00:18:08,140
So I mean, I would love to just participate in a crusade that is aimed towards empowering
241
00:18:08,140 --> 00:18:09,640
women.
242
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,180
So I'm totally game for that.
243
00:18:12,180 --> 00:18:17,700
One question I had very interesting because we were just talking before we started to record
244
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:23,980
the show was the discussions on social media, Twitter spaces and all that kind of jazz.
245
00:18:23,980 --> 00:18:27,340
I'm very curious since I live under a rock.
246
00:18:27,340 --> 00:18:30,540
We both are pretty busy people, I'd imagine.
247
00:18:30,540 --> 00:18:32,220
But what do you think?
248
00:18:32,220 --> 00:18:37,780
Is there a disconnect between what happens on social media versus what's happening in real
249
00:18:37,780 --> 00:18:39,780
life when it comes to agriculture?
250
00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:41,420
Yeah, I think so.
251
00:18:41,420 --> 00:18:42,420
It's interesting.
252
00:18:42,420 --> 00:18:50,340
Twitter spaces doesn't talk a lot about agriculture, but once again, food security is one of the things
253
00:18:50,340 --> 00:18:53,340
that makes it possible for us to be sitting here having this conversation.
254
00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:59,420
So I think that social media could actually be a valuable vehicle for improving understanding
255
00:18:59,420 --> 00:19:00,420
about agriculture.
256
00:19:00,420 --> 00:19:02,420
So two things.
257
00:19:02,420 --> 00:19:10,140
There is a dearth of, they're just not enough people who are good at scientific communication.
258
00:19:10,140 --> 00:19:19,460
So you've got a real need and the COVID experience has demonstrated how scientific communication
259
00:19:19,460 --> 00:19:20,940
is really needed.
260
00:19:20,940 --> 00:19:28,500
So people can actually understand what is happening around the world, not just with agriculture
261
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:30,980
but with medicine and a variety of things.
262
00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:38,100
So Twitter spaces could be a wonderful place for that scientific communication to take
263
00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:39,100
place.
264
00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:46,620
So what Twitter spaces is is it's really becoming a new avenue for media.
265
00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:52,820
As the mainstream media is sort of losing credibility on both sides of the aisle.
266
00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:58,700
You know, if you watch Fox, you know, people think you're right-wing, if you watch CNN, people
267
00:19:58,700 --> 00:20:04,340
think you're left-wing, people are starting to get too divided along those lines.
268
00:20:04,340 --> 00:20:10,460
And what Twitter is supposed to be is it's kind of like the marketplace of ideas.
269
00:20:10,460 --> 00:20:17,860
And so it's a wonderful avenue for real discussion about things if you don't get into a complete
270
00:20:17,860 --> 00:20:19,260
echo chamber.
271
00:20:19,260 --> 00:20:27,020
So I've been participating in discussions around the COVID vaccine on Twitter spaces and you
272
00:20:27,020 --> 00:20:32,460
can get into discussions with people who are anti-vaccine and you can get into discussions
273
00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:36,780
with people who are in the middle and you can get into discussions with people who are pro-vaccine.
274
00:20:36,780 --> 00:20:45,300
And I really try to bridge the gap not for the anti-vaxxers per se like the true diet in
275
00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:51,500
the wool, anti-vaxxers, but the people who are really confused who are hearing mixed messages
276
00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:57,460
about vaccines and things like that and really want to know and want to hear both sides so
277
00:20:57,460 --> 00:21:00,700
they can make a good decision.
278
00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:08,300
I think that that Twitter spaces is becoming the place where you can have a discussion
279
00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:14,340
and go and listen to different opinions and make an informed decision at being having
280
00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:16,140
access to those discussions.
281
00:21:16,140 --> 00:21:20,860
But there are not enough people who do science at the communication who can bridge.
282
00:21:20,860 --> 00:21:29,220
I like to say there are corporate communications teams from companies or university communications
283
00:21:29,220 --> 00:21:38,900
teams that will talk it's sort of generally about a scientific topic but they may not have
284
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:45,140
the scientific expertise to get into a deep discussion and then you've got the scientists
285
00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:53,980
themselves where if you are not a PhD in their field you're in a very deep discussion and
286
00:21:53,980 --> 00:21:57,540
it can be hard to understand what they're saying.
287
00:21:57,540 --> 00:22:05,700
There's a need for a middle ground in communications where people who have a scientific background
288
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:12,260
and can take scientific data and interpret it for lay people in a variety of different
289
00:22:12,260 --> 00:22:18,140
fields where you can have discussions with those folks.
290
00:22:18,140 --> 00:22:26,740
And so Twitter spaces is turning out to be a really good place to go find those experts
291
00:22:26,740 --> 00:22:30,620
but they're not enough people with scientific backgrounds doing it.
292
00:22:30,620 --> 00:22:34,260
So actually you know what now that we're on the topic of COVID and understand it's a very
293
00:22:34,260 --> 00:22:35,860
controversial issue.
294
00:22:35,860 --> 00:22:38,860
So run me through what exactly ended up happening.
295
00:22:38,860 --> 00:22:42,580
I consider myself to be someone who lived under the rock during that period of time.
296
00:22:42,580 --> 00:22:48,180
There was a lot of divisiveness, there's a lot of like left, right, political divide as well.
297
00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:53,500
So what happened here and the more important question would be eventually is what can we
298
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:59,540
do in the future to keep people on the same page in a very constructive way and handle
299
00:22:59,540 --> 00:23:00,940
situation even better?
300
00:23:00,940 --> 00:23:02,700
Yeah, that's a really interesting question.
301
00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:11,780
So I actually do a talk called how medicine became my in San to COVID-19 and pitfalls
302
00:23:11,780 --> 00:23:14,100
in scientific communication.
303
00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:20,820
And what I try to do at that talk is I try to talk, I have a mixed audience of physicians
304
00:23:20,820 --> 00:23:24,780
and healthcare providers and then growers.
305
00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:31,380
So physicians and healthcare providers tend to be liberal, urban, a little bit more left-leaning,
306
00:23:31,380 --> 00:23:40,700
growers and producers tend to be more rural, conservative and a little bit more right-wing.
307
00:23:40,700 --> 00:23:43,540
And neither one is extreme.
308
00:23:43,540 --> 00:23:45,820
That's just kind of the milieu that they are in.
309
00:23:45,820 --> 00:23:50,780
And it's been fascinating to watch the whole thing happen with the COVID vaccine because
310
00:23:50,780 --> 00:23:57,700
physicians are seeing for the first time what it's like for growers.
311
00:23:57,700 --> 00:24:04,300
So growers have known for decades that jams are fine, they're safe, that pesticides are
312
00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:08,940
really critical for food security and pesticides are critical for public health.
313
00:24:08,940 --> 00:24:14,820
They prevent people from getting diseases like the plague and typhus and things like that.
314
00:24:14,820 --> 00:24:20,220
But physicians who are not growers have been like, we don't like these things.
315
00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:26,300
We're concerned about the impact that they have on human health and pediatric health and
316
00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:28,860
planetary health and things like that.
317
00:24:28,860 --> 00:24:33,260
And the scientists in the ag space, we're like, well, we're going to just let the science
318
00:24:33,260 --> 00:24:36,820
prevail because we know that the science is fine and it's good.
319
00:24:36,820 --> 00:24:40,180
And we know that these things work and they're really, really important.
320
00:24:40,180 --> 00:24:47,260
Well, obviously the science around GMOs and pesticides has not been persuasive for people.
321
00:24:47,260 --> 00:24:50,500
The same thing happened during the COVID epidemic.
322
00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:55,500
For the first time, we got meets with the people were overwhelmed by patients coming into
323
00:24:55,500 --> 00:25:00,340
the hospital in especially in New York, which was ground zero for COVID.
324
00:25:00,340 --> 00:25:06,620
And so when physicians saw the vaccines on the horizon, they were like, oh my gosh, there's
325
00:25:06,620 --> 00:25:08,340
a light at the end of the tunnel.
326
00:25:08,340 --> 00:25:13,660
And what they didn't realize was it was an oncoming train of anti-vaccine sentiment.
327
00:25:13,660 --> 00:25:23,300
And people who, because of the political polarization around operation or speed, and this was the
328
00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:24,980
fault of both parties.
329
00:25:24,980 --> 00:25:29,700
Initially, the Democrats were saying, we don't trust operation or speed.
330
00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:33,060
This is a Trump derived vaccine.
331
00:25:33,060 --> 00:25:36,020
It was done too fast to set me other.
332
00:25:36,020 --> 00:25:42,580
And then when Biden came in office and people were pushing mandates and things like that,
333
00:25:42,580 --> 00:25:46,180
and the right sides started saying, we don't trust this at all.
334
00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:49,060
And these were these tests were done too quickly.
335
00:25:49,060 --> 00:25:50,700
And there are all sorts of arguments.
336
00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:57,980
But now you've got these two camps that completely distrust each other and the vaccine.
337
00:25:57,980 --> 00:26:03,100
And it's because of the animus towards Trump and the animus towards Biden.
338
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:06,620
And what it's done is it's really damaged the science, right?
339
00:26:06,620 --> 00:26:13,140
So the physicians were like, well, we're so excited to see these vaccines because finally,
340
00:26:13,140 --> 00:26:17,220
that we've got something to manage the death toll that this is taking.
341
00:26:17,220 --> 00:26:18,940
And we know that the science will prevail.
342
00:26:18,940 --> 00:26:20,620
Well, the science hasn't prevailed.
343
00:26:20,620 --> 00:26:26,780
And so there's this upswout of anti-vaccine sentiment that's starting to spill into other
344
00:26:26,780 --> 00:26:29,220
vaccines, which is very coincident.
345
00:26:29,220 --> 00:26:35,780
So this talk that I do is to get the two of them together and explain to the growers
346
00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:43,340
in rural folks about COVID itself and how COVID works and how the vaccine work.
347
00:26:43,340 --> 00:26:49,180
And then also compare that situation to what they've been dealing with GMOs and pesticides
348
00:26:49,180 --> 00:26:55,100
and explain to the physicians how GMOs work and why they're so important and why pesticides
349
00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:56,500
are so important.
350
00:26:56,500 --> 00:27:05,500
And it's amazing how that bridge starts to help people overcome some of their, their
351
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:11,300
inner biases that they want to wear about other people and about science.
352
00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:16,020
And so I'm hoping to amplify that kind of interaction in the future.
353
00:27:16,020 --> 00:27:20,580
And that's where Twitter spaces is really doing their, they're having people who generally
354
00:27:20,580 --> 00:27:25,060
wouldn't talk to each other on the same stage, trying to talk to each other.
355
00:27:25,060 --> 00:27:29,260
And it's not always easy and it's not always pleasant, but it's so important.
356
00:27:29,260 --> 00:27:35,420
What are some steps we could have taken or we can take in the future to handle
357
00:27:35,420 --> 00:27:36,700
the situation better?
358
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:38,500
I understand the political divide.
359
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:44,660
I hope things get better considering that we have a rise in tools like artificial intelligence.
360
00:27:44,660 --> 00:27:49,140
We have a much more streamlined approach towards communicating each other.
361
00:27:49,140 --> 00:27:54,180
So what could we do better in handling a future catastrophe?
362
00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:57,020
Does it have to be COVID type thing?
363
00:27:57,020 --> 00:28:02,460
But what are steps where something medical, something of catastrophe, catastrophic, catastrophic
364
00:28:02,460 --> 00:28:03,460
happens?
365
00:28:03,460 --> 00:28:04,460
How do we handle it?
366
00:28:04,460 --> 00:28:11,660
I think we have to handle it with a little bit of grace and humility.
367
00:28:11,660 --> 00:28:14,820
First of all, science is an evolving thing.
368
00:28:14,820 --> 00:28:17,100
So you may not have all the answers at first.
369
00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:19,300
We were all in this epidemic together, right?
370
00:28:19,300 --> 00:28:26,100
And we were learning as we were going along novel virus, all of this stuff.
371
00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:30,300
Second thing is to recognize that the hindsight is 2020.
372
00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:35,740
So now that we have all sorts of information knowing that some of the things that weren't
373
00:28:35,740 --> 00:28:44,980
right before, you can't be being so judgmental of people making mistakes as everybody is in
374
00:28:44,980 --> 00:28:50,820
this together learning is destructive too.
375
00:28:50,820 --> 00:28:56,500
I understand that people were put in terrible situations and I think I can understand how difficult
376
00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:59,500
it is to forgive, but it's really important to forgive.
377
00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:04,660
And it's figure out how to, you don't have to forget, but we've got to figure out as a nation
378
00:29:04,660 --> 00:29:11,140
how to get back together to work towards the things that we want, the things that we want
379
00:29:11,140 --> 00:29:15,980
to have for our children in our future in our country.
380
00:29:15,980 --> 00:29:23,660
And so even, and so once again, have grace and humility and then also have some room for
381
00:29:23,660 --> 00:29:25,460
forgiveness even though that's really hard.
382
00:29:25,460 --> 00:29:29,540
Now, so where could doctors have done better in this?
383
00:29:29,540 --> 00:29:33,300
Because doctors were overworked.
384
00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:35,940
They were having burnout anyway.
385
00:29:35,940 --> 00:29:43,820
And the medical system has really evolved into something that is very difficult for physicians
386
00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:45,220
and patients to deal with.
387
00:29:45,220 --> 00:29:47,660
So both of them are frustrated.
388
00:29:47,660 --> 00:29:52,020
When you have a doctor who's seen COVID patient after COVID patient after COVID patient,
389
00:29:52,020 --> 00:29:56,100
they don't help you pregnant women die.
390
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:59,020
People who losing their family members and things like that and you see this vaccine come
391
00:29:59,020 --> 00:30:00,020
along.
392
00:30:00,020 --> 00:30:04,540
And then you see people who don't want the vaccine and those people start dying.
393
00:30:04,540 --> 00:30:09,700
And then you see people who are actively campaigning against the vaccine, they get pretty upset
394
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:11,700
about that and they get angry.
395
00:30:11,700 --> 00:30:18,660
And they have been condescending in their tone towards people who have questions rather
396
00:30:18,660 --> 00:30:24,060
than people who are actively sabotaging the vaccines.
397
00:30:24,060 --> 00:30:31,060
So we needed to have a little bit more humility as a group of doctors.
398
00:30:31,060 --> 00:30:36,500
It's very hard to be patient and very hard to be, you know, we made mistakes.
399
00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:39,580
We said that cloth masks were important cloth masks.
400
00:30:39,580 --> 00:30:46,140
I mean, we might as well be hitting a mosquito with a tennis racket because cloth masks don't
401
00:30:46,140 --> 00:30:48,260
help with this particular virus.
402
00:30:48,260 --> 00:30:52,460
You know, very, very early on, Tony Fauci said we don't need masks and that turned out
403
00:30:52,460 --> 00:30:54,660
to be wrong advice too.
404
00:30:54,660 --> 00:31:02,100
So a lot of different signaling was coming out of different places and we would not entertain
405
00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:06,740
the idea of, you know, alternative viewpoints.
406
00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:12,420
And I think that that really created a whole bunch of distrust and that out of that distrust
407
00:31:12,420 --> 00:31:20,020
grew a bunch of activism that's really backfired against really important public health advances.
408
00:31:20,020 --> 00:31:27,060
I mean, these COVID vaccine, the technology with them has the potential to cure cancer
409
00:31:27,060 --> 00:31:28,740
without using chemotherapy.
410
00:31:28,740 --> 00:31:35,220
Hey listeners, before we jump back into our fascinating conversation, let's take a moment
411
00:31:35,220 --> 00:31:40,180
to appreciate the delicious goodness of paychef food companies, energy pods.
412
00:31:40,180 --> 00:31:45,580
These delightful pods come in a variety of amazing flavors like white chocolate strawberry,
413
00:31:45,580 --> 00:31:50,820
breakfast mokonua and the ever popular chocolate snowba and they're not just tasty, they're
414
00:31:50,820 --> 00:31:56,180
also packed with protein, healthy fats and minimal sugar to keep you fueled throughout the
415
00:31:56,180 --> 00:31:57,180
day.
416
00:31:57,180 --> 00:31:58,580
Perfect for when you're on the go.
417
00:31:58,580 --> 00:32:02,940
These energy pods even come with a built-in spoon for your convenience.
418
00:32:02,940 --> 00:32:08,820
So go ahead and treat yourself to these mouthwatering pods that will make your taste buds dance.
419
00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:17,100
Visit kgfoodco.com, kgfodco.com to grab your favorite flavors and now let's get back to our
420
00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:19,940
inspiring guest.
421
00:32:19,940 --> 00:32:20,940
How's that?
422
00:32:20,940 --> 00:32:25,180
Just sort of, so sad if I'm my the curious person of me just gets the better of me.
423
00:32:25,180 --> 00:32:31,380
So your immune system normally manages small cancers that you get, right?
424
00:32:31,380 --> 00:32:38,740
And they see an ad, your immune system recognizes a funny look and protein on a cancer cell.
425
00:32:38,740 --> 00:32:43,620
But the rest of the cells don't have it says we've got to get that.
426
00:32:43,620 --> 00:32:48,340
If that cancer cell escapes immune detection, right?
427
00:32:48,340 --> 00:32:52,100
It grows and it metastasizes and things like that and before you know it, you've got a big
428
00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:54,180
mass and you've got a big problem.
429
00:32:54,180 --> 00:32:59,060
You could using mRNA technology program.
430
00:32:59,060 --> 00:33:05,820
You could take one of your very own cancer cells which has abnormal proteins on it.
431
00:33:05,820 --> 00:33:11,140
You could program your immune system by using mRNA.
432
00:33:11,140 --> 00:33:15,260
So figure out what that protein is, right?
433
00:33:15,260 --> 00:33:24,100
You could inject just the protein itself and your immune system will be programmed to combat
434
00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:25,100
that.
435
00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:31,220
So it will go and find the cancer cells by itself and kill the cancer cells without chemotherapy.
436
00:33:31,220 --> 00:33:39,420
Because mRNA will code so that for COVID, what the mRNA vaccine does is mRNA is basically a
437
00:33:39,420 --> 00:33:44,420
recipe for a protein and your cell are like a kitchen.
438
00:33:44,420 --> 00:33:52,300
And when you get the mRNA, it goes to the oven, which is like a ribosome that is the machine
439
00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:56,140
in the cell that's like an oven.
440
00:33:56,140 --> 00:34:02,740
And then you have these sous chefs bring in amino acids, which are like the ingredients for
441
00:34:02,740 --> 00:34:04,580
a protein.
442
00:34:04,580 --> 00:34:12,620
And the mRNA makes a protein and then that protein gets packaged and trafficked out to the
443
00:34:12,620 --> 00:34:14,100
outside of the cell.
444
00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:20,900
And your immune system recognizes that protein is foreign and says, "Ooh, we've got to take care
445
00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:21,900
of that cell.
446
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:23,460
We don't want that cell to be abnormal."
447
00:34:23,460 --> 00:34:29,200
So you can have one viral protein instead of a whole virus and your immune system can
448
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:34,300
get trained to target that protein so the virus can't get out of control.
449
00:34:34,300 --> 00:34:39,700
So you could do the same thing with your own cancer cells because your own cancer cells have
450
00:34:39,700 --> 00:34:41,780
abnormal proteins on their surface.
451
00:34:41,780 --> 00:34:46,360
And you could train your immune system to target one or two of those protein using the
452
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,780
same kind of technology and theoretically not meet chemotherapy.
453
00:34:50,780 --> 00:34:57,620
It's how important this research is and because people are so concerned about COVID and how
454
00:34:57,620 --> 00:35:02,300
it was rolled out, they've lost faith in this particular type of technology and it's really
455
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:03,300
unfortunate.
456
00:35:03,300 --> 00:35:09,860
One of the things that I noticed is a significant player that probably turns off a lot of people
457
00:35:09,860 --> 00:35:12,260
is the social political divide.
458
00:35:12,260 --> 00:35:16,860
That seems to be huge when it comes to people trusting somebody or not.
459
00:35:16,860 --> 00:35:23,700
Even if somebody is relatively neutral because they start to gain some influence, their
460
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:29,720
narratives get twisted into a certain way that what they're saying isn't exactly what
461
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:31,460
they're trying to say.
462
00:35:31,460 --> 00:35:33,340
And so you see where I'm going with this?
463
00:35:33,340 --> 00:35:35,980
So how can we sort of work around that kind of stuff?
464
00:35:35,980 --> 00:35:39,640
Yeah, I think once again it's really important not to make assumptions about other people's
465
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,140
political beliefs as well.
466
00:35:41,140 --> 00:35:50,820
So a lot of people, because I'm pro-vaccine, they think that I have this whole, very, very,
467
00:35:50,820 --> 00:35:56,140
very liberal world view when it perhaps my world views very, very much in the middle.
468
00:35:56,140 --> 00:35:58,060
I agree with right-wing people on some things.
469
00:35:58,060 --> 00:36:00,380
I agree with left-wing people on some things.
470
00:36:00,380 --> 00:36:03,420
And I think most people are actually like that.
471
00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:11,100
But it's gotten so polarized that if you, a lot of people are being pushed in one direction
472
00:36:11,100 --> 00:36:12,100
or the other.
473
00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:18,180
And so I think that once again it's really important to be able to have an open honest discussion
474
00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:23,140
and once more people are willing to engage with people on the other side and not think
475
00:36:23,140 --> 00:36:28,380
that all Biden voters are communist and that all Trump voters are fascists.
476
00:36:28,380 --> 00:36:31,900
And you can't talk to them, you know, they're deplorable on both sides.
477
00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:34,060
Once you understand that we have the same goals.
478
00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:35,380
We want to be healthy.
479
00:36:35,380 --> 00:36:36,820
We want to be productive.
480
00:36:36,820 --> 00:36:40,100
We want our children to be successful.
481
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:43,020
Those are the basic goal.
482
00:36:43,020 --> 00:36:47,420
And how we get there and our ideas about how to get there may be different.
483
00:36:47,420 --> 00:36:53,260
But up until the past couple of years we've been able to have conversations about that.
484
00:36:53,260 --> 00:36:55,340
And now people are too divided.
485
00:36:55,340 --> 00:37:01,340
So once again I would say maybe have a little humility, have a little forgiveness and try
486
00:37:01,340 --> 00:37:06,020
to share what other people are saying because most people are really in the middle and the
487
00:37:06,020 --> 00:37:10,420
fringes are what is controlling the dialogue.
488
00:37:10,420 --> 00:37:12,100
They hope that answers that question.
489
00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:13,900
Yeah, that's great.
490
00:37:13,900 --> 00:37:19,460
I think that myself as well, I don't follow any political system per se.
491
00:37:19,460 --> 00:37:21,100
Like I said, I live under a rock.
492
00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:24,620
So a lot of the times people are my eyes and ears.
493
00:37:24,620 --> 00:37:29,340
And based on the little that I do engage in, I'm pretty sure I think I'm somewhere in
494
00:37:29,340 --> 00:37:30,340
the middle too.
495
00:37:30,340 --> 00:37:32,100
It's like, oh, that guy makes sense.
496
00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:33,740
Oh, now that guy makes sense too.
497
00:37:33,740 --> 00:37:34,740
It's like, okay.
498
00:37:34,740 --> 00:37:36,860
You know where to reach a conclusion here.
499
00:37:36,860 --> 00:37:38,780
There's too many nuances now.
500
00:37:38,780 --> 00:37:39,780
So that's where I am.
501
00:37:39,780 --> 00:37:44,980
I guess that's where a good science helps is that you start to converge towards something
502
00:37:44,980 --> 00:37:49,740
that people can generally agree upon rather than continue to argue about it.
503
00:37:49,740 --> 00:37:51,220
Yeah, science is it.
504
00:37:51,220 --> 00:37:52,780
Once again science evolves, right?
505
00:37:52,780 --> 00:37:58,020
As we learn about things, our knowledge gets better and better and stronger and stronger,
506
00:37:58,020 --> 00:37:59,020
right?
507
00:37:59,020 --> 00:38:00,860
We learn that things do or don't work.
508
00:38:00,860 --> 00:38:05,900
So for example, early on in the COVID epidemic, people were wondering about hydroxychloroquine
509
00:38:05,900 --> 00:38:11,780
because in a petri dish, it seemed to prevent the virus from getting into cells and they thought
510
00:38:11,780 --> 00:38:12,980
this might be a good idea.
511
00:38:12,980 --> 00:38:18,740
So say how if you donated a whole bunch of hydroxychloroquine to research that, right?
512
00:38:18,740 --> 00:38:23,020
And it was the hydroxychloroquine has been used in lots of different diseases.
513
00:38:23,020 --> 00:38:26,140
So people were familiar with using it, right?
514
00:38:26,140 --> 00:38:27,900
But that got so politicized.
515
00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:29,660
First of all, it doesn't work.
516
00:38:29,660 --> 00:38:33,100
Secondly, it has a narrow therapeutic window.
517
00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:38,660
So it can actually cause harm if taken in overdose or sometimes even a therapeutic dose,
518
00:38:38,660 --> 00:38:41,460
you can cause retinal toxicity if people can go blind.
519
00:38:41,460 --> 00:38:45,740
So I wouldn't blatantly go running around telling everybody they should take this as a
520
00:38:45,740 --> 00:38:48,420
miracle cure for COVID.
521
00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:54,100
And hydroxychloroquine got very, very politicized, very, very early on and good journals even
522
00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:57,860
published misinformation and disinformation about hydroxychloroquine.
523
00:38:57,860 --> 00:39:07,580
The Lancet published an article in May of 2020 talking about how in 96,000 patients, hydroxychloroquine
524
00:39:07,580 --> 00:39:16,220
was shown not to be of benefit in ICU patients with COVID.
525
00:39:16,220 --> 00:39:22,580
And then the Lancet had to retract that article because it turns out that they couldn't provide
526
00:39:22,580 --> 00:39:23,580
the data.
527
00:39:23,580 --> 00:39:31,020
Like where did you get 96,000 patients in six weeks since the pandemic's been declared?
528
00:39:31,020 --> 00:39:37,420
One, and two, your stats aren't matching up what our national records are showing.
529
00:39:37,420 --> 00:39:39,140
And three, we want to see the data.
530
00:39:39,140 --> 00:39:41,620
Well, they couldn't provide the data.
531
00:39:41,620 --> 00:39:45,720
And the reason why they couldn't provide the data was because it was all falsified by a group
532
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:46,720
called "sertosphere."
533
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:54,000
And the people who were part of "sertosphere" who were quote unquote running the study were
534
00:39:54,000 --> 00:40:03,120
a cardiologist, a science fiction writer, and an adult stripper.
535
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:04,120
[laughs]
536
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:09,760
Turned out to be the people who put together this quote and quote data.
537
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,880
So the Lancet had to retract it.
538
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,720
And lots of people went, "Oh my gosh."
539
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:19,440
Well, maybe it does work because this top tier journal has published this stuff and it turns
540
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,800
out, and they were very vocal about people like wondering about peer review and stuff like
541
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:25,800
that.
542
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,520
They were not nice to people who were questioning the article.
543
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,320
And then the article has to be retracted.
544
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,960
So that set the stage for all sorts of medical and misinformation, right?
545
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:43,560
And so you had people claiming that vitamin D and bidement D and hypermacked in and
546
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,040
zinc could prevent COVID.
547
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,480
And you would have complete no discussion around those things.
548
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,720
And the hypermecting got completely squashed too.
549
00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:56,480
So hypermacked and looked like it would work in the in vitro.
550
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,360
It turns out it probably doesn't work.
551
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:05,440
But the difference between hypermacked and hydroxyploric win, and vitamin D and zinc is they're
552
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:06,960
not going to really hurt you.
553
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,640
So if people are taking that off label, I don't particularly care because they've not
554
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,160
going to hurt themselves with it, right?
555
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,920
People do all sorts of crazy stuff when they're sick.
556
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,200
To homeopathy to treat cancer.
557
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,520
And we don't tell them they can't talk about that.
558
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,320
We tell them it doesn't work.
559
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:25,320
And that's the truth.
560
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:26,320
It doesn't work.
561
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,320
But we don't tell them they can't do homeopathy.
562
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:34,000
We don't tell them they can't take vitamin C. We don't go after that.
563
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,120
And tell them that they're ridiculous stupid.
564
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,440
And that's what happened, right?
565
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:46,480
And so people, and then there were scientific organizations in journals publishing it works.
566
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:47,480
It doesn't work.
567
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:48,480
It works.
568
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:49,480
It doesn't work.
569
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,880
And then people got to big fight and they stopped talking.
570
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,560
And that's where the whole narrative about COVID fell apart.
571
00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:01,680
So I think once again, I will, I'm agnostic when it comes to vitamin D and zinc and hypermacked
572
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:02,680
in.
573
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:07,760
But the vaccines, vaccines really are important and they do work and they work well and
574
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,240
they're wonderful science.
575
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:18,360
And so I'm not so wedded to my personal version of what I think about, you know, the left
576
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:24,480
or the right or zinc and vitamin D and the vaccines.
577
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:30,480
On the other side, you've got these charlatans who are really taking advantage of people
578
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:36,520
using their MD degrees and, you know, selling supplements, quote, unquote at very, very high
579
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,920
prices and doing consultations and thousands of dollars that have no efficacy whatsoever
580
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,360
and saying that that will dissolve the, you know, spike protein or that will prevent you
581
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,200
from having strokes that are induced by the vaccine.
582
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,240
So you've got, you know, real grifters that are in this conversation as well.
583
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:55,920
And it makes a difficult for patients.
584
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:57,360
It makes a difficult for patients.
585
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,280
Yeah, the whole grifting part is just absolutely crazy.
586
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:06,440
One thing that I would like to also ask about you is some recent developments I've started
587
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:11,000
happening every time you go to Twitter, there's also a thread about how to maximize AI or
588
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,680
chat to EBT and all that kind of stuff.
589
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,720
And then there's also the discussion about these journals, these scientific journals, a
590
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:24,880
lot of the science people complain that they're taking something for free and charging people
591
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,120
for that.
592
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:31,440
So what do we see in the future of this sort of scientific discovery?
593
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,960
Is there something positive up on the horizon here where some better scientific research
594
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:36,960
can be expected?
595
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,000
Like, how do you make sense out of this stuff?
596
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:44,400
Yeah, so I think science is in a really interesting moment.
597
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:51,160
I think the innovation that is coming out of every field of science is just unprecedented.
598
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,160
It's amazing.
599
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:59,440
It's everything from AI to, you know, biotechnology to, you know, gene editing and curing diseases
600
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,440
that we never thought we could cure before.
601
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:10,760
And using crops to, you can, the thought of using crops to be solar power generators of
602
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:11,760
medicine.
603
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,360
If you think about, you know, your medicines, a lot of them come from plants anyway, you
604
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:19,960
can grow whole crops that are, you know, instead of building to produce these things, a whole
605
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,920
variety of really cutting-edge, fascinating science.
606
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,200
But there's some headwinds to it.
607
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,680
So the headwinds to it are publishing in general is in trouble.
608
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:37,880
So there's been a move for open access publishing, which is really important because, you know,
609
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:45,040
when we were developing HIV medicines, for example, a lot of that research took place in
610
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,520
patients with large populations of HIV.
611
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,720
And so Africa was a continent.
612
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:53,880
There was a lot of research going on, on HIV.
613
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:59,600
And the very same doctors who would have done the research in the patients who were participating
614
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:05,400
in these trials and things like that couldn't get access to the journals that their results
615
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:10,200
were written up in because there was a barrier, was that they were too expensive.
616
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:16,880
And so the thought is that, you know, we need to provide it, especially because these studies
617
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:24,680
are often government funded, so the population is funding it through taxpayer dollars.
618
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,680
And so the population can't get access to these articles because they cost too much.
619
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:34,280
And so, and the same thing with the researchers and the trial participants.
620
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,160
And so the move for open publishing really took off.
621
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:44,200
And what happened with that was then the authors started having to pay thousands of dollars
622
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,320
to journals in order to have open access.
623
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,520
And so that was a barrier for publication.
624
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:56,840
And for academics, your career is based on the number of publications that you have and
625
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,880
what high quality journals and stuff like that.
626
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:00,760
So it became financially difficult.
627
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,200
They would come out of their grant money for every article that they would want to publish
628
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,520
in open access.
629
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:12,000
And so the journal editors are often not paid either.
630
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:17,600
So you've got peer review that are doing peer review on their, on the side for a journal
631
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:24,320
that's getting all sorts of money from either subscriptions or authors payments and things
632
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:25,320
like that.
633
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,560
And peer reviews done for free on the side.
634
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,600
The research is, you know, is publicly funded.
635
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,360
And the journals making a lot of money.
636
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:35,880
And so two things.
637
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:41,520
It made people very, very upset with the way journals are run just in general.
638
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:42,880
And it did another thing.
639
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:50,600
It caused the flourishing of predatory journals, which predatory journals are publishing unpear
640
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:55,120
reviewed nonsense, which is getting into the scientific literature.
641
00:46:55,120 --> 00:47:00,920
And when people who don't know that there is a public, that this particular journal that
642
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,920
is willing to publish their article, legitimate researchers are getting burned by it because
643
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,800
their legitimate research is being put in the predatory journal.
644
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:15,120
And so scientific misinformation and disinformation is blossoming in that area.
645
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:21,560
And when you think about what that means for science in general, especially if AI is involved,
646
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:28,720
you've got fraudulent articles about a topic and you have AI incorporating those articles
647
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:30,320
in a discussion.
648
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,760
Now you have a real problem about what's real in science and what's not.
649
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:39,520
So those are the headwinds that are facing scientific journals.
650
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:45,320
And I think that we're going to see some new thing, just like Twitter spaces is really becoming
651
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,840
when Tucker Carlson's off the air in Fox and he's coming to Twitter.
652
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:54,400
A lot of leading commentators, all the politicians are on Twitter.
653
00:47:54,400 --> 00:48:01,120
And so I think we're going to see a seismic shift in scientific publishing and how to make
654
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:07,120
sure that you're getting the best information is going to be a really important thing to
655
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:11,920
think about and how to discern what's right and what's what's not.
656
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:18,320
And I almost say that if you look at outcomes, outcomes might have to be one of the sort of
657
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,840
things that you hang your hat on when you're thinking about things.
658
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:26,400
And unfortunately, if you look at evidence-based medicine, we always talk about evidence-based
659
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:27,400
medicine.
660
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:32,280
We're going to see a randomized double-blind told study where patients have a better outcome
661
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,600
or for ag.
662
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,680
We've seen what happened in Sri Lanka, Sri Lanka, the last one they decided to go all organic
663
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:41,680
in Bay and Pesticides and fertilize it.
664
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,480
The whole economy collapsed.
665
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:49,080
That should be an outcome that should be governing or steering your policymaking and your
666
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,320
scientific judgment about things.
667
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:53,320
That's crazy.
668
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:58,680
One of the dreams I ever ever have, like ever since I was a kid, I was very much in
669
00:48:58,680 --> 00:48:59,680
do.
670
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:00,680
I wanted to become a researcher.
671
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:01,680
That was my dream.
672
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:07,080
Not an entrepreneur, not an engineer, none of that stuff research because I was always
673
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,920
into getting into the nitty-gritty of stuff.
674
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:15,440
I would love to see something in the near future where doing research becomes a lot more
675
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:16,720
accessible.
676
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:20,880
That would be so amazing.
677
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,960
I don't know how that's going to be possible, but if there's someone who does that, I'm
678
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:26,520
all in.
679
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,240
Is there something you would like to discuss because I took about an hour of your time so
680
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:31,720
I don't want to spill over?
681
00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:32,720
Is there something else?
682
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:33,720
No, this is all good.
683
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:34,720
This is all good.
684
00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:35,720
This is all good.
685
00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:41,640
No, this is all really interesting stuff and it's been fun to talk to you.
686
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:42,640
Sounds fantastic.
687
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,680
For the previous podcast that you did with our KetoGee podcast, I'll link there because
688
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,680
there's a lot more gems of information that people can listen to on that show as well.
689
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,920
Especially in the...I think we talked a lot about GMOs as well.
690
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,440
Any final words and your final plugs?
691
00:49:58,440 --> 00:49:59,920
Where how people can find you?
692
00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:03,440
Yes, you can follow me at Dr. Liza M.B on Twitter.
693
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:10,000
I do a lot of threads and I respond to people's questions directly as much as I can.
694
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:18,000
Feel free to follow me and I'm happy to answer questions about medicine, about agriculture,
695
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,360
about a variety of different topics.
696
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,360
I also do a podcast.
697
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:28,840
I'm a co-host for a podcast called "Thax Empalacies" while the other co-host is out on
698
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:29,840
Trinity Leafs.
699
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,040
So come listen to those.
700
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:36,240
I'll be treating those and go into some interesting topics about Science and General
701
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:39,440
from the Genetic Literacy Project.
702
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,560
And that's what I'm doing for these next couple of days.
703
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,360
So it's great to talk to you.
704
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:46,360
Awesome.
705
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:47,360
Fantastic.
706
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:48,360
Thank you.
707
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:55,080
Thank you for joining us on this incredible episode with Dr. Liza Dunn.
708
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:59,920
Stay tuned for more amazing content on the Energize Explorer Enjoy Podcast.
709
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:05,240
Next week we have a special guest lined up, a charismatic James Kennedy, a renowned science
710
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:10,760
communicator, and made famous for his amazing and wacky chemistry infographics.
711
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,560
Get ready for an engaging discussion that will blow your mind.
712
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:19,040
[MUSIC]
713
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,160
Thank you for listening to our podcast.
714
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:26,240
If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate, review, and subscribe to our Energize Explorer
715
00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:30,280
Enjoy Podcast on your favorite podcasting platform.
716
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:31,280
See you next week.
717
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:40,280
[MUSIC]
718
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,560
[MUSIC PLAYING]